The price of fuel

[Braggi]

https://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/s..._adjusted.html

Anybody remember the cost of gas in 2000? Oh, that's right. It was $1.66 a gallon. Now it's looking like $4.00 before long.

That's what happens when you put oil men in the White House.

-Jeff

[shellebelle]

Yep but love Gas Club - I get it at a "discount" of $2.86 :eek: right now!

[Zeno Swijtink]

Explain yourself Jeff. What energy policy would lead to a lower fuel price?

[Braggi]

There are many, but I'll give you one that will guarantee increased fuel prices: invade an Opec country and totally disrupt confidence in the world supply of oil.

How to drop the price? Imagine if all the money spent on our military adventure in Iraq/Afghanistan had been spent on solar panels and wind generators.

We could shut down every oil burning power plant in the US. We could power a massive fleet of plug in electric or hybrid vehicles. That would drop worldwide demand substantially and oil would cost less.

There are so many but I'll stop there.

-Jeff

Jeff for President 2012
I'm Jeff and I approve this message.

[Tars]

Low fuel price is the problem, not the solution.

[Braggi]

Low fuel price is the problem, not the solution.

Tars, that used to be my opinion. However, the more prices have gone up the more we use. So price is not the answer unless there are cheaper alternatives. So far not.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

the cheaper alternatives will materialize as long as the prices go up.
necessity is the mother of invention

Tars, that used to be my opinion. However, the more prices have gone up the more we use. So price is not the answer unless there are cheaper alternatives. So far not.

-Jeff

[Tars]

the more prices have gone up the more we use. So price is not the answer unless there are cheaper alternatives. So far not.

If "we" are using more, then the price hasn't gone up enough yet. I am using less fuel than I was a year ago. Not floating my own boat; it's just an economic necessity. I need to drive some fairly large guzzlers due to the nature of my business. To accommodate that need with rising fuel prices, I either had to raise my own prices, or find a cheaper fuel alternative. Raising my business' prices is not a viable alternative, else I'd price myself out of competition. So, I found the first of probably many alternatives - I purchased a small, inexpensive vehicle which I use for all purposes where I don't absolutely have to use a guzzler.

I had some work interns here from Sweden for a few months. They said that fuel in Sweden is going for about $5 a liter. They were amazed at the huge size of the average American auto, banging and belching down the road. I think that in many respects Sweden may be the future of the U.S.

I believe you're correct, demand will continue to rise. But as price and demand rise, fuel efficiency will drive effective cost-per-gallon-travelled down. It's purely a matter of human selfish self-interest.

[Valley Oak]

How about driving around with reclaimed veggie oil?

My wife and I own two veggie cars. We get used cooking oil from restaurants and bottling plants. Doesn't cost us anything.

However, the purchase of an old beater, diesel Mercedes and then converting it is a cost but it amortizes in less than two years time. After that, you can spend the rest of your driving time laughing your head off every time you pass a gasoline station.

This is good for the environment, good for politics (both foreign and domestic), and absolutely sublime for your pocket book!

www.vegoilcoop.org

Edward

[mykil]

Back in the early seventies I had the opportunity to hang out with a guy that told me some wild, yet believable stories, of endless power from the a source that was just way out of our reach. I tended to listen and was enlightened beyond what they might have been telling the public even in those dayz. This endless power came from a beam of energy 24/7 streaming via a satellite directly shining down from the sun. They even had computer programs that would turn off the such a devise if a commercial airplane or any other aircraft traveled too close, even a self destruct button for extreme emergencies. I was impressed and thought nothing too much about it when I ask why we can’t use such a thing like the sun for this endless power. TI was laughed at, he said it would never be used EVER as long as we still had oil. Back in the day when he was telling me this story it was like something right out of star wars, and even corresponded with the timing of star wars. Yet as I have been thinking if this person, whom by the way went on to develop out first handheld communications systems we still use today, I run into another guy. About the same age yet remind you this is years later. Oh yeah he is still with us. Tells me stories about building high towers for people all over the world. This is what he did for a living till he retired many years back. But he personally witnessed the power of the sun and a few mirrors that blew my mind just listening to him tell the story. On a mountaintop back in the eighties in Arizona, he built a couple of huge towers for government research and was invited to the show. A huge satellite configuration full of mirrors focused on a chunk of metal about a foot square. It was disaggregated in less than a second.

WE have this power yet still are not allowed to use it, just out of pure corruption of our governments. How in this day and age can we the people get any of this power? How can we make our government use this endless and literally pollution free power? They have the technology and it has to be way better than it was in the seventies. Yet no one will let US have it!

[Valley Oak]

Dear Mykil,

I don't know the answers to your questions.

I can, however, insist on what I have already said in my previous post in this thread: I am now driving around in a solution that protects our environment, offers us a political alternative, and saves you a bundle of money. In short, we turn garbage into gold because we use reclaimed restaurant oil, which the restaurants have to pay good money to 'renderers' to haul away to the landfill or somewhere else. We save close to whatever amount of money you and everyone else pay at the pump.

Here is a draft for a short summary of what we, the Biofuels Research Cooperative, do:

"The Biofuels Research Cooperative, aka Veggieoil Coop, is an organization of
folks who have, for approximately six years, been conducting alternative
fuels research, primarily by running diesel vehicles on waste vegetable oil.
We intend to help pioneer the conversion of vehicle transportation to earth
sustaining methods that do not rely on the use of sequestered carbon, such
as petroleum. Using waste vegetable oil for fuel is part of that solution,
by diverting it from it¹s trip to the landfill, and instead using it to
power cars. Our membership maintains a depot, where we filter used
vegetable oil and make it usable to run in vehicles. We also have members
who participate in occasional seminars or educational events to make the
public more aware of the possibilities of alternative fuel transportation."


Peace through grease,

Edward

Back in the early seventies I had the opportunity to hang out with a guy that told me some wild, yet believable stories, of endless power from the a source that was just way out of our reach. I tended to listen and was enlightened beyond what they might have been telling the public even in those dayz. This endless power came from a beam of energy 24/7 streaming via a satellite directly shining down from the sun. They even had computer programs that would turn off the such a devise if a commercial airplane or any other aircraft traveled too close, even a self destruct button for extreme emergencies. I was impressed and thought nothing too much about it when I ask why we can’t use such a thing like the sun for this endless power. TI was laughed at, he said it would never be used EVER as long as we still had oil. Back in the day when he was telling me this story it was like something right out of star wars, and even corresponded with the timing of star wars. Yet as I have been thinking if this person, whom by the way went on to develop out first handheld communications systems we still use today, I run into another guy. About the same age yet remind you this is years later. Oh yeah he is still with us. Tells me stories about building high towers for people all over the world. This is what he did for a living till he retired many years back. But he personally witnessed the power of the sun and a few mirrors that blew my mind just listening to him tell the story. On a mountaintop back in the eighties in Arizona, he built a couple of huge towers for government research and was invited to the show. A huge satellite configuration full of mirrors focused on a chunk of metal about a foot square. It was disaggregated in less than a second.

WE have this power yet still are not allowed to use it, just out of pure corruption of our governments. How in this day and age can we the people get any of this power? How can we make our government use this endless and literally pollution free power? They have the technology and it has to be way better than it was in the seventies. Yet no one will let US have it!

[Zeno Swijtink]

I had some work interns here from Sweden for a few months. They said that fuel in Sweden is going for about $5 a liter. They were amazed at the huge size of the average American auto, banging and belching down the road. I think that in many respects Sweden may be the future of the U.S.

[mykil]

So yoyu have not heard the news today??? Bio-fuels are doing more ahrm to the enviroment than gas??? hmmmm, it was a good idea but its not the answer dude!!!

Dear Mykil,

I don't know the answers to your questions.

I can, however, insist on what I have already said in my previous post in this thread: I am now driving around in a solution that protects our environment, offers us a political alternative, and saves you a bundle of money. In short, we turn garbage into gold because we use reclaimed restaurant oil, which the restaurants have to pay good money to 'renderers' to haul away to the landfill or somewhere else. We save close to whatever amount of money you and everyone else pay at the pump.

Here is a draft for a short summary of what we, the Biofuels Research Cooperative, do:

"The Biofuels Research Cooperative, aka Veggieoil Coop, is an organization of
folks who have, for approximately six years, been conducting alternative
fuels research, primarily by running diesel vehicles on waste vegetable oil.
We intend to help pioneer the conversion of vehicle transportation to earth
sustaining methods that do not rely on the use of sequestered carbon, such
as petroleum. Using waste vegetable oil for fuel is part of that solution,
by diverting it from it¹s trip to the landfill, and instead using it to
power cars. Our membership maintains a depot, where we filter used
vegetable oil and make it usable to run in vehicles. We also have members
who participate in occasional seminars or educational events to make the
public more aware of the possibilities of alternative fuel transportation."


Peace through grease,

Edward

[Valley Oak]

Please show the reference for this news.

Thanks,

Edward

So yoyu have not heard the news today??? Bio-fuels are doing more ahrm to the enviroment than gas??? hmmmm, it was a good idea but its not the answer dude!!!

[mykil]

It's benn a boiling for a while now Edward, THe latest report was in the press democrat jsut like three or four dayz ago, look it up. I dont think it was more than a week gone by since I read this there!

[mykil]

https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/artic...34/1033/NEWS01

It's benn a boiling for a while now Edward, THe latest report was in the press democrat jsut like three or four dayz ago, look it up. I dont think it was more than a week gone by since I read this there!

[MsTerry]

HAHA Edward,

What are you going pump now?
I went to town on the bike today!

https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/artic...34/1033/NEWS01

[Valley Oak]

Thanks, Mykil. Here are three Press Democrat links that I found on this:

https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/artic...NEWS/802090334

https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/apps/...?crit=biofuels

https://www1.pressdemocrat.com/artic...WIRE/802080354

The articles in the Press Democrat's website say that the studies done on making biofuels on a large, worldwide scale will result in the clearing of many, very large plots of land all over the planet, and it is this preparation for cultivating biofuels that would have a negative effect on the environment. But the studies do not say that the direct emissions from burning biofuels has a negative environmental impact.

Therefore, my recycled restaurant oil is still a very good thing indeed, one that I will continue to use as fuel in our two veggie cars. Remember something else, the vegetable oil produced for restaurants is an industry that has been around for many, many years and its intention is the restaurant industry, not biofuels. If the mass cultivation of biofuels never takes place, as the studies seem to suggest that it shouldn't, the thousands of gallons of waste vegetable oil produced everyday will continue to exist and continue to be thrown away as garbage. The consumption of waste vegetable oil is much less harmful (if at all) for the environment than petroleum fuels.

Thanks again,

Edward

It's benn a boiling for a while now Edward, THe latest report was in the press democrat jsut like three or four dayz ago, look it up. I dont think it was more than a week gone by since I read this there!

[Braggi]

the cheaper alternatives will materialize as long as the prices go up.
necessity is the mother of invention

But it hasn't because as a culture, and a poor excuse for a culture at that, we have lacked the political will to do anything better, so we choke in our poison and filth.

The prices go up and we follow along like the sheeple we are. We just adjust rather than improve our appetites.

We need a leader who will inspire us and lead us away from oil because as a people we lack the will to tell our leaders what they should do. Such a leader risks assassination either in the press or in reality, of course.

There are so many barriers, most of them corrupt political ones, but it is really cultural spiritual weakness that hinders us.

We lack the vision.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

... If the mass cultivation of biofuels never takes place, as the studies seem to suggest that it shouldn't, the thousands of gallons of waste vegetable oil produced everyday will continue to exist and continue to be thrown away as garbage. The consumption of waste vegetable oil is much less harmful (if at all) for the environment than petroleum fuels.

Thanks again,

Edward

Well said, Edward. You beat me to the punch.

-Jeff

[mykil]

I see on the average about two hundred or so veggie fuel cars a year. I see these cars running and up close, they back right up to me for me to load them with the product I sell. On a good day, I can tell you which restaurant they got their oil from just from the smell they give off. Along with the unmistakable black-smoke just like the diesel car. You can really tell what was being fried in that oil, not latterly what restaurant but what was being cooked for sure. Be it donuts, burgers and fries or the worst is the fish. Man the fish restaurant oils and definitely the smelliest. For the last few years I have pretty much toyed with the idea of going veggie. Then winter comes around, I see the cars and my mind clears from this illusion of getting a veggie vehicle. The idea is a great one if it is the free oil thingy you are going for. In the long run I fear it is no better than drilling holes in the earth and raping the land. Algae does give off the most usable oil of all and is not a bad source, I can’t imagine the whole central Cali damming up and making ponds like rice in order to grow algae thou. The sun is where it’s at and the sooner the better!!!

[MsTerry]

If the mass cultivation of biofuels never takes place, as the studies seem to suggest that it shouldn't, the thousands of gallons of waste vegetable oil produced everyday will continue to exist and continue to be thrown away as garbage.

Are you sure about that?
I believe that some of that oil is being re-used

The consumption of waste vegetable oil is much less harmful (if at all) for the environment than petroleum fuels.

this statement is like comparing Hitler with Bush.
Who is worse? well that depends on where you live!
Burning veggie oil still adds to global warming and air pollution

[MsTerry]

But it hasn't because as a culture, and a poor excuse for a culture at that, we have lacked the political will to do anything better, so we choke in our poison and filth.

Yes, that is how it looks, but sometimes it got toget worse before it gets better

The prices go up and we follow along like the sheeple we are. We just adjust rather than improve our appetites.

Yes our species evolves! LOL

We need a leader who will inspire us and lead us away from oil because as a people we lack the will to tell our leaders what they should do. Such a leader risks assassination either in the press or in reality, of course.

I agree.
Will you run? I'll vote for you!

There are so many barriers, most of them corrupt political ones, but it is really cultural spiritual weakness that hinders us.

I would like you to eleborate on the "cultural spiritual weakness that hinders us", before I say that I don't agree

We lack the vision

NO, we lack the experience of higher prices, ($10 a Gallon), close quarters, cramped cities and narrow streets like they have in Europe for example.
eg. the cars in EU are smaller, use less gas and can make a 180 in one turn in their kind of streets!

[Valley Oak]

Almost all of the waste vegetable oil is thrown away. Do you know in what other applications the very small amount you are referring to is being used for? A couple of years ago, the California State Attorney General fined a 'renderer' (a company that collects and disposes of restaurant oil) almost one million dollars for dumping WVO into a creek or river. The traditional corporate mentality is not getting it and they had to get hit with a walloping penalty. Renderers don't give a shit about the environment; they are doing this job for the money and nothing more.

Hitler and Bush? No, not by a long shot. Burning veggie is very, very clean and that's a fact. If you put petroleum on a scale where it is 100% pollution, then veggie oil would range somewhere between 1 and 3%. With numbers that good, you are hard pressed to find a viable alternative. Care to try and find one? Rejection alone is not enough. We have to find an alternative. Imagine the world half a century from now; you might still be alive to see it and it won't be a pretty sight. Even if we have enough petroleum to last us another 100 years that is still a big challenge to find some new sources that will be able to adequately substitute the contemporary use of petroleum today.

Where do you get your facts, anyway? Please do your homework:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_vegetable_oil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greasecar

www.joshtickell.com

I have a question for you: When the world runs out of petroleum in the next 50 years, what realistic alternative for transportation energy will we have? Think about it. A lot folks are doing that right now. So please give it some serious thought. It's not enough to simply reject an idea (a proven one at that); you have to come up with an answer and that's not easy.

Edward



[QUOTE=MsTerry;50176][quote=Valley Oak;
Are you sure about that?
I believe that some of that oil is being re-used

this statement is like comparing Hitler with Bush.
Who is worse? well that depends on where you live!
Burning veggie oil still adds to global warming and air pollution[/QUOTE]

[mykil]

In another 100 years??? I think you might have ruffled his feathers their Mizz Terry, In another 100 years the population will be enormous. We won’t be able to plant things for fuel. Food will be number uno! Granted Edward, no one here thinks you are doing the wrong thing in running around town in your cool little veggie powered Mercedes. The fact is we can’t go that way all the way. After there is enough to use up all the restaurants and chip factories in the world, which is close already at this point, growing more for fuel is not a good idea. The source you seek is the solar energy from the sun plain and simple. If we don’t start using the solar trip we will all die!


[quote=Valley Oak;50179]Almost all of the waste vegetable oil is thrown away. Do you know in what other applications the very small amount you are referring to is being used for? A couple of years ago, the California State Attorney General fined a 'renderer' (a company that collects and disposes of restaurant oil) almost one million dollars for dumping WVO into a creek or river. The traditional corporate mentality is not getting it and they had to get hit with a walloping penalty. Renderers don't give a shit about the environment; they are doing this job for the money and nothing more.

Hitler and Bush? No, not by a long shot. Burning veggie is very, very clean and that's a fact. If you put petroleum on a scale where it is 100% pollution, then veggie oil would range somewhere between 1 and 3%. With numbers that good, you are hard pressed to find a viable alternative. Care to try and find one? Rejection alone is not enough. We have to find an alternative. Imagine the world half a century from now; you might still be alive to see it and it won't be a pretty sight. Even if we have enough petroleum to last us another 100 years that is still a big challenge to find some new sources that will be able to adequately substitute the contemporary use of petroleum today.

Where do you get your facts, anyway? Please do your homework:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_vegetable_oil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greasecar

www.joshtickell.com

I have a question for you: When the world runs out of petroleum in the next 50 years, what realistic alternative for transportation energy will we have? Think about it. A lot folks are doing that right now. So please give it some serious thought. It's not enough to simply reject an idea (a proven one at that); you have to come up with an answer and that's not easy.

Edward

[Valley Oak]

The great majority of WVO is unused. Full use of all WVO (restaurants, bottling companies, etc) would substitute between 5 and 15% of the present day consumption of petroleum. WVO alone cannot be the answer, even if we were to drastically reduce our total consumption of hydrocarbons by 50%

Yes, Mykil, I agree with you that the sun is the original and the best source of energy because that's where it all came from to begin with, including the energy in WVO. But we need the technology and the political will and the public awareness. We can't move this wealthiest of societies towards a solution with oil men in power in the White House.

If we could tap into solar energy for all of our energy needs then that would definitely be the ultimate solution. But how? And all applications? How?

Edward


[QUOTE=mykil;50187]In another 100 years??? I think you might have ruffled his feathers their Mizz Terry, In another 100 years the population will be enormous. We won’t be able to plant things for fuel. Food will be number uno! Granted Edward, no one here thinks you are doing the wrong thing in running around town in your cool little veggie powered Mercedes. The fact is we can’t go that way all the way. After there is enough to use up all the restaurants and chip factories in the world, which is close already at this point, growing more for fuel is not a good idea. The source you seek is the solar energy from the sun plain and simple. If we don’t start using the solar trip we will all die!

Almost all of the waste vegetable oil is thrown away. Do you know in what other applications the very small amount you are referring to is being used for? A couple of years ago, the California State Attorney General fined a 'renderer' (a company that collects and disposes of restaurant oil) almost one million dollars for dumping WVO into a creek or river. The traditional corporate mentality is not getting it and they had to get hit with a walloping penalty. Renderers don't give a shit about the environment; they are doing this job for the money and nothing more.

Hitler and Bush? No, not by a long shot. Burning veggie is very, very clean and that's a fact. If you put petroleum on a scale where it is 100% pollution, then veggie oil would range somewhere between 1 and 3%. With numbers that good, you are hard pressed to find a viable alternative. Care to try and find one? Rejection alone is not enough. We have to find an alternative. Imagine the world half a century from now; you might still be alive to see it and it won't be a pretty sight. Even if we have enough petroleum to last us another 100 years that is still a big challenge to find some new sources that will be able to adequately substitute the contemporary use of petroleum today.

Where do you get your facts, anyway? Please do your homework:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_vegetable_oil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greasecar

www.joshtickell.com

I have a question for you: When the world runs out of petroleum in the next 50 years, what realistic alternative for transportation energy will we have? Think about it. A lot folks are doing that right now. So please give it some serious thought. It's not enough to simply reject an idea (a proven one at that); you have to come up with an answer and that's not easy.

Edward

[Dark Shadows]

Edward,

I am very interested in converting my vehicle to the veggie oil solution. How much did it end up costing you to convert and what is your weekly cost to run your vehicle on the oil? How do I get started? I have very limited time to do the research required, for a good reason that I won't go into right now. But trust me, its not trivial. If you could let me know what the procedure is, or even just point me in the right direction and let me know how much money I should expect to spend, I'd really be happy.

Thanks.

How about driving around with reclaimed veggie oil?

My wife and I own two veggie cars. We get used cooking oil from restaurants and bottling plants. Doesn't cost us anything.

However, the purchase of an old beater, diesel Mercedes and then converting it is a cost but it amortizes in less than two years time. After that, you can spend the rest of your driving time laughing your head off every time you pass a gasoline station.

This is good for the environment, good for politics (both foreign and domestic), and absolutely sublime for your pocket book!

www.vegoilcoop.org

Edward

[Zeno Swijtink]

Tars, that used to be my opinion. However, the more prices have gone up the more we use. So price is not the answer unless there are cheaper alternatives. So far not.

-Jeff

"In California, the nation's biggest fuel market, drivers have been burning through less gasoline than they had the year before for six straight quarters. From July through September, the most recent data available, Californians used 46.2 million fewer gallons, or 1.1% less than in the year-earlier period."

This may not seem much, but it does not consider population increase.

******

https://www.latimes.com/business/la-...933,full.story

ENERGY
Fewer drivers over a barrel

By Ronald D. White, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
February 18, 2008

Sun Valley legal secretary James Eric Freedner got fed up with high gasoline prices.

He put his 2003 Toyota Tacoma truck in the garage and switched to a Honda Nighthawk motorcycle for weekday commutes to Beverly Hills. He stopped driving to the beach on weekends and cut back on trips to Hanford and Fresno to check on properties he manages. He began grouping errands into one trip each Saturday.

The trade-offs Freedner has made in the last year haven't necessarily made him happy, but they've reduced his gasoline consumption nearly 50%. And although he admits to feeling jittery traveling freeways on the Nighthawk, all the changes are permanent, unless gas returns to $2.50 a gallon.

"The price was just eating up what I earned," said Freedner, 57. "This is the best thing I can do to make ends meet."

Americans are getting serious about using less gasoline, confounding some economists who have argued that most people can't reduce their driving much because they have to get to and from work and make those necessary trips such as shopping and chauffeuring their children around.

The truth is more complicated, according to some energy experts: When the price reaches a certain threshold or the driving reaches a peak point of aggravation, people are willing to give up personal space and independence.

"There is an awful lot of what might be called discretionary driving," said Edward Leamer, an economist with the UCLA Anderson Forecast. "Raise the price high enough, and you will see that there is a lot more that people can do."

For some, the next drop in prices won't be enough to send them back to their old driving habits.

"The trend will be toward more lasting conservation and longer-term savings if they are not just reacting to prices and have instead made a decision to change," said Bruce Bullock, executive director of the Maguire Energy Institute at Southern Methodist University's Cox School of Business in Dallas.

In California, the nation's biggest fuel market, drivers have been burning through less gasoline than they had the year before for six straight quarters. From July through September, the most recent data available, Californians used 46.2 million fewer gallons, or 1.1% less than in the year-earlier period.

Consider ridership figures for the Bay Area Rapid Transit system.

For seven years, nothing was able to displace Oct. 4, 2000, when the San Francisco Giants and Oakland Athletics baseball teams were gunning for a pennant. BART set a single-day ridership record with 374,900 passengers.

That peak was eclipsed in 2007, and has been beaten so often that it no longer ranks among the top 10 ridership days. The new record, 389,400, was set Aug. 31.

Ridership on the buses and trains run by the Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority dropped overall in 2007, but officials said that was the result of a fare increase in July. Before that, boardings had been on the rise.

The MTA's Orange Line has seen daily ridership grow from just under 15,500 in 2005 to nearly 21,500 last year.

In its annual state of the region report, released in December, the Southern California Assn. of Governments noted that the share of commuters who drove alone had dropped in 2005 and 2006, from 76.7% to 74.1%, reversing steady increases from 2000 through 2004.

With gasoline prices doubling since 2003, motorists nationwide are conserving fuel by taking fewer trips, driving slower and paying premiums for the most fuel-efficient vehicles, the Congressional Budget Office said in a recent report.

Kimra Haskell, a mathematics professor at USC, began bicycling to work six months ago.

She had many reasons. Sometimes she felt a shooting pain in her driving leg. She wanted to make a statement about the Iraq war and U.S. dependence on foreign oil. The California lifestyle of driving everywhere for everything -- even to exercise at a gym -- had left her too dependent on her aging 1993 Honda Accord.

She made her trial run from Eagle Rock to USC on a clunky, old Schwinn mountain bike. On the return trip of the 26-mile ride, uphill, she was ready to abandon the bike by the side of the road. But she persevered, bought a sleek, Italian Bianchi Volpe bicycle and is building up to cycling to work five days a week.

Gas prices were only part of the story, Haskell, 43, said. "It was mainly the effects on my health, on the time it took out of my life, the stress of dealing with the traffic."

Antipollution regulations are altering habits, too. California's air-quality rules demand that employers with 250 or more workers takes steps to reach a 1.5-1 passenger-vehicle ratio, or about 34 cars for every 50 employees.

At the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in La Cañada Flintridge, there are perks for ride sharing. About 8,000 full-time and contract employees work on a campus with only 4,000 parking spaces, said John Miranda, JPL's employee transportation coordinator.

Drive to JPL alone, and you'll have to walk a few blocks from an off-site parking lot, Miranda said. Sharing the ride with one person earns an unassigned space on the JPL campus, he said. Three or more to a car hits the jackpot: an assigned parking space on campus.

One who didn't have to be sold was Shadan Ardalan, 39, who serves as navigator of the Cassini space probe's mission to Saturn. Mornings and evenings, Ardalan navigates a van pool in a leased Ford, taking co-workers to and from the Redondo Beach area.

"Driving alone was a huge stress, a lot of wear and tear on the psyche," Ardalan said.

Bad news at the pump has been good for business at Troy, Mich.-based VPSI Inc., which leases six- to 14-passenger vans to businesses, governments and transit agencies.

The company charges $900 to $1,200 a month for the vans, which allow employees to leave their cars at home. Employees with good safety records serve as drivers for their pools.

After averaging between 5% and 6% annual growth for much of its history, Chief Executive Jeff Henning said, VPSI has grown 10% or more on average nationally since 2005. Southern California had the fastest expansion in 2007 at 13%, although it takes extra to entice Southlanders.

Although most of the vans leased by VPSI customers in other parts of the nation are utilitarian at best, California van pools tend to carry more expensive accouterments, such as high-backed, individually reclining seats, said Jim Appleby, VPSI's manager for Southern California.

"It takes a little bit more to get people out of their cars here," Appleby said.

Sometimes, the answer can be as easy as changing work hours and offering an incentive.

To encourage carpooling, Hilario Navarro, president of 36-employee Bonanza Foods & Provisions Inc. in Vernon, rearranged schedules of six workers who lived in West Covina. In January, he handed out $100 prepaid gasoline cards to the first two drivers of the month.

Now, there are often just two vehicles on the road to work from West Covina, with three riders each.

But less gasoline guzzling isn't the only fringe benefit, Navarro said. It has changed the climate of his workplace as well.

"They arrive happier now," he said, "with more energy."

[email protected]
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[Valley Oak]

About $8,000.

Cheaper if you are lucky and a lot cheaper if you are very lucky. A friend of mine managed to buy an old, old Mercedes for only $500 and it runs rough but that is truly the exception. Let's say it's going to be about $2,000 to $4,000 for an old beater (or less), approximately +$2,000 for the conversion (or maybe more), and about another $2,000 for the membership fees, auto repairs (because it's an old car), various supplies, and incidentals (which will happen). Do not make the mistake of buying a car that doesn't work at all or needs a new engine. Someone I know did this and they never got around to finishing the work because it was too costly and they never converted. If you don't have to spend that much money in one thing then you will have more to spend in another need for your veggie project so the eight grand investment is about right, which you will spend over the first year, maybe two.

My wife and I save more than $3,000 a year by not having to pay gasoline or diesel prices at a filling station so your investment should amortize in about three years (and this includes the purchase of the car itself). Unless you own a business, how often can you do that when you buy a new or used car?

There is going to be a general meeting of the co-op next month in March but I need to ask permission to invite people.

Eventually, after you have learned all of the basics (which will take a while), the best scenario will be for you to establish a relationship with a restaurant of some kind where you can pick up some of their oil. Chances are, unless it's a small business, that you will not be able to pick up all of their oil so they will probably need to continue paying a renderer to collect the rest for them.

You will need a portable pump that is powered by your car's battery to suck up their oil or simply pick up the restaurant's plastic jugs or buckets. You will need to filter the oil at home so you will also need two large metal, 55 gallon drums; a heating device of some kind (even if you have to make one by splicing wire and buying a barbecue element) to heat up the oil to about 100 degrees so it will filter quickly; you will need a filtering device such as the ones sold by Greasecar or Neoteric (www.greasecar.com, www.plantdrive.com) or you can make your own with jean pant legs and sewing one end and bunching them together in a platform (over the metal drum) like I do; you will need an additional $400 pump at home to pump the filtered oil from your drums to your car.

The conversion that I have (each conversion is different) is composed of a Vormax, a Vegtherm, and a loop return. This is known as a 'single tank' conversion because I don't need an auxiliary tank in the trunk, which are known as 'double tank' conversions. The Vormax, by Racor, is a heavy duty, double chamber filter and heater for large agricultural machinery and costs at least $400. The Vegtherm is an inline fuel heater which costs about $150. The loop return is a system of fuel lines that utilizes the unused fuel, which has already been heated. You can purchase these through:
www.plantdrive.com. You will also need to hire a veggie mechanic and there are few of those and hard to find. Unless you are a mechanic by profession or very talented with auto mechanics, I don't recommend you take this on by yourself. There is a lot to learn. Craig Reece, co-owner of Neoteric, can give you a lot more advice and references than I can. The Biofuels Research Cooperative will also help you.

I very strongly recommend that you subscribe to one of our Yahoogroups and shoot away with your questions. The group there is eager to help you and promote this alternative:
[email protected]

This subscription will get you started; that is the best thing you can do for now (and read the links I gave you) and you will find your way down the rabbit hole.

Edward

Edward,

I am very interested in converting my vehicle to the veggie oil solution. How much did it end up costing you to convert and what is your weekly cost to run your vehicle on the oil? How do I get started? I have very limited time to do the research required, for a good reason that I won't go into right now. But trust me, its not trivial. If you could let me know what the procedure is, or even just point me in the right direction and let me know how much money I should expect to spend, I'd really be happy.

Thanks.

[MsTerry]

I think there will be some governmental regulation at some point to control access to oil.
the real problem with our lives is that almost everything we touch or use is derived from a petro-chemical source.
the very cars that uses oil also need oil to be manufactured and build, parts made out of plastic and so on.
Can you think of something that doesn't use plastic or oil?
at some point the decision will have to be are we going to use up the available oil to make utilitarian things or burn it up as gasoline?
but it's got to get worse before this mindset will start to kick in.
maybe Zeno can dig up the ratio of use for gasoline and for other use

[quote=Frederick M. Dolan;50191]My question is: don't you think these things will be decided by forces beyond our control? Isn't what matters to be remembered for deeds closer to home? None of us is going to solve "the"problem. If any of us is remembered, it will be for concrete particular acts. Be nice to those around you. Nobody will remember anything more of you.